This is the man the Romanian Baptists have recently declared him (excommunicated him?) as an heretic (meanwhile the website of the Baptist Union have removed the link – a good chronology of the story can be found on Istorie evanghelica Romanian blog). Does the history repeat itself? The communists persecuted him and now the Baptists, his brothers and sisters, the people he stood up for, are now denigrating him – executing him morally. He is charged because he declared himself to be not cessationist (he believes that the Holy Spirit still speaks directly to people and we see his manifestation in healing, etc… see the link) and because he supports a movement called Strajerii (the watchmen) a non-denominational organisation that has some charismatic elements (not extreme though) and which prays for spiritual renewal.
Ton describes this as a development in his theology. Hardly a sin I would say, not even a major change. It is natural to grow in a relationship with God. See Ton’s explanation of his theology here.
They even passed a resolution to interdict his sermons to be broadcast on Radio Vocea Evengheliei (a national Christian Radio network), a radio that he has pioneered in Romania. The Romanian Missionary Society, the society he headed for a long time and helped build, has also released news that they don’t want anything to do with him.
Please pray for Joseph and his family now – and also for his executors, which are so many, in particular on Romanian speaking Evangelical blogs.
Ton has had a great influence on me and on many other church leaders in Romania and throughout the world.
PS. I am really sorry that I have to write this critical post to the Romanian Baptist Union but I can’t stand by without pointing out to the wrong they are doing. Even in a non Christian context it is unacceptable to treat someone the way they treat Ton.
Nelu, I didn’t have time to read the Romanian thoroughly, and am not sure that I ‘got’ all the details, but I got the impression that Ton has become charismatic, and wants to be their voice and help them develop their theology, and this is why he is being vilified by the Baptists.
Have I got that right?
Not quite – he has declared that he still believes in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit – a personal experience – a development in his theology. He wrote a paper telling about his views- it is nothing radical – but the fundamentalist mind, driven by other political (in fight) motivations is bent to destroy those that present nuances.
Then they are not really Baptists.
Baptists believe in individual religious liberty.
Their spiritual ancestors were heavily persecuted for their beliefs so they should not now be persecuting other people.
Baptists do not traditionally have a confession of faith as to do that would create heretics.
I suspect that the people called “baptists” are what might be referred to in Scotland as “Bible Baptists”, who are much more strict and confessional. There is such a church in Perth (you can’t join unless you agree that the earth is 6500 years old – no religious liberty there then). http://www.bbcperth.co.uk/Pages/our_beliefs/default.html
It’s not the first time that the Romanian Baptists disregard their own principles – and for sure won’t be the last.
Funny enough, I was thinking about the whole fiasco very early this morning – not because I couldn’t sleep, but because I woke up at 5am to drive someone to the airport. It struck me that the whole thing made me really sick even though I don’t like Mr Ton at all. I met him several times, I listened to his sermons, I went to a summer camp where he lectured for a few days in a row and he did not impress me at all. I could not agree with anything he said. His theology was naive at best, his preaching was monotone and boring, and on one to one conversations I found him very difficult and aloof. In conclusion, I’m NOT a fan. Not even close.
That being said, you can’t just throw an ordained pastor like that out, or any person for that matter, without some kind of due process. Where was the theological conversation or consultation with him? When was he given a chance to answer and justify his new theological directions in front of a forum of Baptist theologians? Never, because there ARE no Baptist theologians. And there are no real pastors in the Romanian Baptist Church (I’ve never met one), since they utterly failed to be pastoral towards an old man who invested the biggest part of his life to ministry. THAT I find outrageous and disastrous. It shows that Evangelicals in Romania have lost their way or mind, or both. I’m slowly losing hope for them. I know you’re much more hopeful, Nelu, but this proves once more that there is little to hope for.
I can’t agree more with you Daniel. You have an ear that is closer than mine to the centre of power. It is hard to see any hope in the progress of the RB as it is now – but lets hope that in two generations (if there is any RB left) things will be different.
What makes me sad is even in this situation when someone pointed out to them the mature way presbyteryans in USA dealt with a similar situation in 1970 most of the righteous baptists (and evangelical Romanians) see themselves better than the PCUSA because PSUSA are liberals!
N.J.
Are you pastoral when you say you do not like him, you could not agree with ANYTHING he said, he is NAIVE, monotone and boring. You sound like the accuser of the brethren
I am sorry to tell, friends, that I agree with you. The whole thing nakes you sick. Sectarianism and fundamentalism at its worst.
No hope, whatsoever, in this generation of Evangelical leaders. Let’s talk twenty years later. 😦
Nelu, I guess you got it wrong this time, Tson has not been excommunicated, at least not as yet. He was withdrawn his ordination as a Baptist pastor. He is therefore still a Baptist, but he is no longer a pastor.
The way that I read parts of the Union’s press release it does look as an excommunication (taken with the request to excommunicate Nelu Demeter another Baptist guilty of the same heresy). From what it’s worth it does look as a excommunication even though the wording is not as such
What is really, really worrying is the complete lack of pastoral care in the Evangelical world in Romania. There is no concept of pastoral care, no idea about what it really means to be pastoral towards someone, other than finding proof texts that somehow fits a particular sin in people’s lives. As Eugene Peterson puts it, pastors are not called to be archaeologists of sin. My only experience of pastoral care in Romania was based on hitting people over the head with the Bible (figuratively, of course, stop being so literal!!!).
It was only when I came to Scotland that I discovered true love for people and a pastoral care based on empathy and identifying with the other. (Scotland and Eugene Peterson’s Pastoral Library, that is.) This was completely unknown to me before Scotland – and I studied in a Baptist University in Romania for 5 years!!! No pastors in sight! (The University Students’ Pastor was a living example of how not to be pastoral.)
Unless there will be a radical paradigm shift in the Evangelical community in Romania away from a scape-goating and blame-casting culture, and more towards a genuine love for people, even for those who disagree with the party line, I don’t see anything good happening. Change doesn’t happen by itself, even through generational change. It’s the same milk they grow up with.
agree Daniel
Well, words are what the are, aren’t they? It is definitely not an excommunication until something as such really happens. He cannot be excommunicated as he is not a member of any baptist church (at least to my knowledge), which is smart move as far as Ton is concerned. Nobody can actually excommunicate him until he settles within a local church. he’s been playing a card which does not rise up to his reputation if you ask me… I would also suggest that we should not turn Tson into a modern martyr, because he does not even come close to that (not these days at least). From where I stand he does not look pristine when it comes to his recent development, but that is of course my tainted, sinful perception….
Sir, you are free to your own opinion. But from where I stand Ton is being vilified by what it looks like a gang of merciless wolves. Whatever your experiences are sir, you cannot just take from the fact that this man has confronted the powerful regime as very few in the country were prepared to do. In the light of these what the union (RVE and RMS) did was a despicable gesture.
I am a simple lady who lives far away from Romania right now but it does make me sick the way they are bringing revenge over Mister Iosif Ton.
I’m also feeling hopefull because I see God’s people rising and speaking against this “execution” all over the world.
May God bless them all, He knows how better then me!
And May He bless you brothers!
Well, I can surely understand the value of Christian love in all issues, but dogmatic rectitude is not to be easily discarded either. I have argued on other blogs that Tson’s recent opinions place him within pentecostalism (having declared his being baptized with the Spirit after his conversion), and until his theological position is clarified, his sermons were banned from being broadcasted. While this decision appears normal and fair to me, others – such as yourself – perceive it as the action of a “gang of merciless wolves”. Evidently, I disagree and it is in my capacity of an ordinary Baptist believer that I react against such labeling. I wholly endorse that decision and I take offense when some people are being scorned just because they earnestly took decisions which prompted you, and others as well, to call them a gang of wolves. You may wish to point to such animals if their actions are so despicable. Everybody these days seems to be screaming out load that Tson has been unfairly pushed beyond the ecclesiastical boundaries of Baptist communion as a result of some secret and obscure decisions, when in fact he was dealt with as a result of his publicly disseminated views, which run contrary to Baptist doctrines. And, of course, almost nothing has been said about Tson’s willingness to associate himself with Nelu Demeter, an individual whose teachings and actions are way below what each of us would accept as mere decency. And, forgive me for saying this, but when I see Tson with that person, I unexpectedly raise not only my eyebrows but also at least one innocent question concerning the reasons for such companionship…
I used ‘what it looks like a gang …’, and from where I stand this is my perception – and am am sorry you feel like that – I can’t help it. I stand by what I say and the people who make that decision have behaved like that against a person that did not have any chance of defence.
And as an ex baptist I would say that they did it contrary to what the baptist stand for … and the way they did it ….. despicable.
This seems to conclude our short dialogue on this issue – I can’t help it either. I am not precluded though from wishing you all the best for the new year – and I mean it. Good day, sir!
Happy New Year to you too! and I hope the new year (as Christmas has passed now) will give my Romanian Baptist (and not only) friends a more Jesus like spirit – of love and care for all, even for those that disagree strongly with them!
[…] Suffering for Christ – it happens again for Joseph Ton from Nelu’s blog by […]
I was hoping that the title of this article was a joke – but I am afraid it isn’t. 🙂
I think Shifu is right on.
Considering the problems of the Church of Scotland…I frankly would not worry too much about the Romanian evangelicals (if they are losing their minds, what about the members of the C of Scotland?) or the Baptist Union is particular.
But – I suppose it is always easier to see the mistakes and problems of others!
Unfortunately it is true that Ton is persecuted by his brothers. You might know a little about CoS but I assure you, you have no idea what you are talking about! Despite the fact that I am now a CoS minister in my heart of hearts I am still a Romanian Baptist (not that kind that is on show today) – and that is why it is so hurtful to see what they do and the way they do it. I am very sad indeed, and your comments don’t make me fell better either.
I am sorry Nely if I made you sad! I honestly do not see why you are so surprised by the decision. Tson and Strajerii are clearly outside historical Romanian Baptist tradition. WHY are you surprised that the break (especially if he is not even a member in a Baptist church) was formalized. They probably were a bit heavy handed when they went after his sermons etc., but I believe that they honestly consider Strajerii eretici (and they clearly associate themselves with Pastor Chris who has serious problems) and they want to limit the influence of someone who has joined a very questionable group! I seriously doubt this is personal…the president is Oti B!
But – maybe you are better informed!
I don’t think the issue is strajerii – it is the power struggle, and the desire to humiliate Ton that is at the heart of the matter. While I agree with you that Oti might not necessary hold the same desire (I don’t know though the in and outs) – he might be overrun by the power of influence and perseverance of other side.
[…] Suffering for Christ – it happens again for Joseph Ton from Nelu’s blog by nelu This is the man the Romanian Baptists have recently declared him (excommunicated him?) as an heretic. Does the history repeat itself? The communists persecuted him and now the Baptists, his brothers and sisters, the people he stood up for, are now denigrating him – executing him morally. He is charged because he declared himself to […] […]
@Cristi
Sorry to come back on this, but what exactly are the ‘problems of the Church of Scotland’ that you’re referring to? I was very specific when I mentioned problems within evangelicalism in Romania. Can you clarify that point? It’s good practice, I find, to actually back up your statements with logical arguments. (You may discover that what you see as ‘problems’ I see as advantages, but I could be wrong of course. Also be aware that as a CofS ordained minister, I probably know a little more about the CofS than you do.)
@Shifu
It’s interesting that you mention dogmatic rectitude in the context of love, as if love somehow eliminates it, or that dogmatic rectitude trumps love. There is no such thing in the Bible as ‘yeah, love, but…’!!! That’s why it is all so messed up. I wonder what dogmatic rectitude is exactly in the Baptist context in Romania – many argue that Baptists don’t have a monolithic dogma. A Confession of faith is not a dogma.
Also, notice that I did NOT talk about Mr. Ton’s rectitude or lack-there-of. That was NOT the issue I raised. A clue should have been in my statement that I don’t agree with his theology. What I said was that you can’t throw an ordained pastor out without proper due process. Have a consultation, invite the man to a debate – private or public – send someone to have a pastoral conversation with him, show that you actually care more about people than dogmas. Otherwise it just smells too much of political vendetta.
Right; a Confession of Faith is not a dogma; it is a sum of more than just one dogma. At the same time though it is the essence of one’s life with God, this is why I and you as well are asked to justify our faith whenever necessary. I suspect you would not be extremely happy should you invite me to preach to your congregation and I go on with the baptism of adult persons as the only valid type of baptism. I am pretty sure you wouldn’t be that delighted. If so, I am quite troubled when Tson preaches pentecostal issues as a Baptist; may he feel free to do so following his decision to adhere to pentecostalism. And of course this does not mean that I hate Tson. I have no other choice but to love him and this is exactly what I must do as a Christian. Nevertheless, the decision not to tolerate his pentecostal teachings within the baptist communion is not a sign of hate; love takes many forms and seriously warning someone (by withdrawing his ordination) may be a proof thereof. Had it been political vendetta, Tson would have probably faced some sort of ecclesiastical ban in 1996. On second thought, I am wrong… In 1996 he resigned from his pastoral office at Emanuel Baptist Church, so he was out of reach had anybody expressed the wish to deal with him in terms which resemble excommunication (or something similar)… very much like these days – right? – when he deliberately avoids becoming a member of any local church, so he is again untouchable…
A dogma is much more serious than mere statements of beliefs. It requires serious theological justifications, not mere statements. No, a Confession is not a collection of dogmas. But that’s another story. I don’t really like dogmas anyway.
We are asked to justify our hope, not our faith, and the way to do that is not to spew out dogmas, but to speak words of wisdom from the Spirit, in love.
Besides, as far as I can understand Baptist theology, the rule of Scripture is paramount. That means that if one can prove with the Scripture that a certain practice is biblical, then it doesn’t matter if it fits within the ‘Baptist confines’ or not. The issue is NOT ‘is it Baptist’, but ‘is it biblical’ and ‘is it from God’. At least that’s what Baptist theologians like to shout from roof-tops. The inspiration of the Holy Spirit is not confined to any theology.
As far as baptism is concerned, our Confessions of faith are not final. If you read them carefully, you will notice that they are open to reinterpretation in the light of the Scriptures. There are CofS ministers who have a problem with infant baptism, and yet they are not thrown out. It is up to them, really, if they can be a part of a denomination that holds another view on baptism. Freedom of conscience is essential in the CofS, something that Romanians can’t even comprehend yet.
The issue is not if I would like you or not to preach about adult baptism as the ONLY valid baptism (a rather arrogant notion, mind you), the issue is ‘why would you preach that in a Reformed church’? For what purpose? What would you want to achieve? And I assure you that even if you did, you wouldn’t be lynched at the end of the service. Granted, you wouldn’t be invited to preach again, because that’s just poor pastoral practice. But nobody would think: “Oh, he preached against our precious dogmas, let’s sack the man!”
Again, it’s not about what Ton did, but how he was treated. This was done in haste and without proper consultation and pastoral care for him and his family. But I realize now that this whole aspect completely escapes you, so I’m going to leave it there.
Well – what are the problems of the Church of Scotland?
Since you two are pastors there – I will let you list the top 2 problems of the Church of Scotland – and then maybe we can compare them with the top 2 problems of the Romanian Baptists. One thing is quite sure: Tson and the charismatic baptists are NOT a major problem for R Baptists! [And with all due respect – there is no need of a theological debate on this issue. To anyone in the Baptist tradition (yes – I called it trandition), it is clear that Strajerii are outside this tradition. Also – in true Baptist tradition anyone is free to chose his church and style of worship (charismatic etc).]
I am expecting your answers, but let me get the ball rolling: the ordination of a practicing gay minister (Reverend Scott Rennie). If you do not consider this a major problem for a church, then it is better to close the debate – for we definitely have a different understanding of Christianity and the Church.
I think SHIFU is right to show the lack of humility here (while he is accused of being proud), and I frankly do not understand any of you (including Danut) on the issue of pastoral care.
How can any of you state that there are no Romanian Baptist pastors who care for their sheep and provide genuine pastoral care??? How can you possibly make such a statement? The obvious question is: have you asked the parishioners of ALL the Romanian baptist pastors? I can tell you that I have seen Romanian pastors who cared a lot for their sheep and worked very hard.
[Note: In general where the Gospel is preached well, there is less need for ‘counseling.’ That is why you will find a plethora of counselors in liberal churches. When the Gospel is not preached well – they need a lot of counseling. That is not to say that where the Gospel is preached well there is no need at all for counseling!]
Concerning pastoral care for Tson – (I recall that you were mentioning that there was no pastoral care shown in this case) – Is this a joke???
Do you think that Tson would accept pastoral care from anybody in UBR??? Many of his supporters say/said that he is a brand etc…he is so big. In a sense it is true. If you find anybody in UBR to whom Tson will go for pastoral care (you need humility to go for pastoral care) please let me know because I would like to go myself! 🙂
As an aside – it seems that Tson is not a member in any Baptist church (if he is – please correct me), so I am not sure that the Baptists did such a grave thing if they do not accept him as their own especially with his move to Strajerii!
Happy New Year and many blessings.
I am sorry if I was a bit harsh, but I am puzzled by many of your comments!
The issue in the CoS you pointed out (i.e. Scott R) I see as a strength, but I don’t expect you to understand this – I once was thinking like you and I know the limits of fundamentalist position. But this is a very different issue and I don’t think your way of trying to engage the particular issue I raised here is elegant – you are attacking me and Daniel. This is not right a right way of dialogue in my books and as such I won’t engage the CoS in this discussion. I have tackled this issue elsewhere.
Like Nelu, I think the induction (not ordination, he was already ordained, check your facts) of Scott Rennie was a good thing. I’m glad you did say his name instead of saying ‘that homosexual dude’. It’s a step forward. It’s much easier to bash people you’ve never met. I know Scott personally and I know he’s a wonderful pastor and he’s loved by his church. I recognize there is a big debate about homosexuality all over the world, and I also recognize that Baptists are tying salvation to sexual purity, which is frankly theologically ridiculous. But that’s just my opinion. Thus, like I said, it is a strength of the CofS, not a weakness.
You mention two top problems. Can’t find the second one in your comment.
Concerning your statement here: ” In general where the Gospel is preached well, there is less need for ‘counseling.’ That is why you will find a plethora of counselors in liberal churches. When the Gospel is not preached well – they need a lot of counseling. That is not to say that where the Gospel is preached well there is no need at all for counseling!”
That is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard in my entire life. Tell that to Rev. Paul Negrut and he will laugh his head off. My friend, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Preaching the Gospel is not counselling. Don’t confuse peaches with carrots.
On another note, I am really tired of Baptists making bold statements with absolutely no backing what-so-ever. If you’re not prepared to back your statements up with proof and arguments, then please stop wasting my time. I’ve got better things to do. If you want to dialogue properly, I’m open to hear your case. But be ready for critical analysis. Theology is a science. A science is based on critical thinking and peer review. Without these two, we’re not talking about theology. We’re talking about dogmatism, or worse, fundamentalism.
Apart from that, be happy and blessed! (edited by Nelu at request of Daniel)
Daniel I think you meant to say ‘it was a good thing’, rather than ‘it was not a good thing’.
And to add to Daniel’s remarks: ‘counselling’ is not the same with ‘pastoral care’ which is not the same with ‘preaching’. Mixing up things is messed up thinking!
Well spotted Nelu! Please correct my post and remove the ‘not’ from my comment
There is absolutely no reason for you to bully me… You presume, much to easily, that some aspects – highlighted in your discourse – completely escape me. I might be a little more perceptive than that. You really don’t need to be paternalistic with me; it does not serve your cause and, provided that you are a minister indeed, as well as a fatherly figure to your congregation, I should be expecting the love you so fervently expound in your answer. Nevertheless, please feel free to have the last word on this…
I’m sorry you feel that I bullied you, but your comment makes absolutely no sense to me. I backed up my claims with arguments, which you failed to do in my view. I could be wrong of course, I’ve been wrong before, so perhaps others should be impartial judges in this. If your case falls to pieces that does not mean you are being bullied. That’s a mighty strong word you used, and you SHOULD back it up with an explanation. Otherwise it just becomes a masked form of cursing. Throwing accusations around is not a good practice when engaging in dialogue.
I said that the whole aspect of consultation and pastoral care for Ton and his family escapes you because your response to my previous posts completely ignored this aspect. It may have been harsh, but it is FAR from bullying! I’m actually baffled by your use of that word. I’m wondering if there’s a language issue here…
Last word should be Nelu’s actually, it’s his blog. Even though I think he now regrets it…
No Daniel, I don’t regret it. But I am still writing the sermon for tomorrow! I do agree with you that the procedure is not good. And also that this case shows not just lack of judgement but also a very narrow view of what baptists see themselves to be in Romania. I worked with many Baptists in Scotland and UK, and some of them are liberals, some evangelicals and some charismatics, but all of them are part of the same church, Baptist. I have very good friends who are Baptists here in Scotland and UK. And I am convinced that many of them are troubled by the talibanistic way the Romanian baptists have acted in this case.
I was baffled when Shifu used the example of baptism – for once as a Christian when I go to speak and preach in another denomination I never seek to hurt my brothers and sisters. I preached in Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Anglican, URC, Brethren, Independent churches in UK (and probably others). And I consider them all equally my brothers and sisters. But you are right – lack of awareness – lack of understanding and lack of recognition that they are not the only ones that have access to God. A kind of superiority complex.
Well said. I think, Nelu, that this is why it is very difficult for me to engage Romanian evangelicals in dialogue over these aspects. They just don’t get it. Not because they are intellectually inferior, but because they’ve never had the experience of real pastoral care. They don’t know what it feels like to encounter a pastor who cares more about them as human beings than any dogmatic purity. I know what that is because I experienced it, not because I’m so very smart and special. This is not something that can be communicated intellectually. This is not about doing as much as being. It has to be experienced. Otherwise it just ends up in a dead end.
Agree. back to sermon now.
I should have seen it coming… Leaving some things aside or dealing with them in a milder manner is not always a sign of love. Well, may God be with you both in all respects!
At last, we’ve been diagnosed… a “kind of superiority complex”. Good point… Coming from two Presbyterian ministers (formerly Baptist) who believe Romanian evangelicals (especially Baptists) lack the experience of true pastoral care to the point that NONE of them really knows what this is (maybe because there is no true theologian among Romanian evangelicals, another “amazing” conclusion from one of you), well – one may wish to reconsider where the “kind of superiority complex” really lies.
Shifu, was it here or on Danut web that I saw a comment of yours saying that the Baptists are the only true Christians (something along these lines – can’t remember now exactly the wording)? (not to mention the open letter of my friend and colleague at Emanuel Adrian Mateias which has a healthy doze of Baptist superiority and infailibility) Then the fact that the Baptist Union decided to deal with Ton and the other two in such a way (as heretics) does show superiority and points to a doze of infailability. Now don’t tell me that these don’t point to ‘a kind of superiority’ complex (not considering the general attitude of Romanian Baptists towards the Orthodox church, etc…)
Well said Shifu!
I’m glad you like what Shifu said. Please be aware that ‘Well said’ does not constitute an argument. As Shifu admitted himself, he has only provided his ‘thoughts’, and no arguments. (See below) I, for one, am not interested in the ‘thoughts’ of an anonymous entity. We, in the civilized theological world like to operate on something we like to call ‘proof’ or ‘arguments’ that make sense. Statements are fine, but they are not proof. He’s just stating his indignation, he’s not proving I’m wrong. Could it be because he can’t? He did not give me ONE example of a Baptist theologian or ONE example of a pastor who knows what pastoral care is about. Still waiting…
Again, what is lacking in your comments, Shifu, is any form of arguments. Making bold statements do not constitute arguments. That’s why I said there are no Baptist theologians: because there is NO theological dialogue in Romania. None. Show me one sign of it. One.
Theology is done in dialogue and exchange of ideas. All we have in Romania is a political war based on mere statements (which you seem to excel at), as well as a contest of “who’s more narrow dogmatically”. That’s it. That is not theology. I’m ready to be proven wrong. With arguments, not mere statements without any backing. I’m sure I’m wrong about there being no theologians. Gosh, I hope I’m wrong.
As far as pastoral care is concerned, you still have not produced any evidence to show that there IS pastoral care in evangelical Romania. Your indignation is not proof. I’m ready to be proven wrong about this as well. Surely, I don’t know what happens everywhere in Romania. I’m sure the are pastors who truly love their members. I’ve just never met one who loves them more than ‘dogmatic rectitude’.
(On another note, and for the sake of dialogue, please note that a real dialogue implies real names, not hiding behind pseudonyms. If you can’t own up to what you’re saying publicly, perhaps you shouldn’t be saying anything at all. It’s easy to throw statements around without backing it up with arguments or personal investment. )
Daniel – you are probably right that there is not much theological dialogue in Romania, though I am not sure about this (I am too far; I guess you are closer and you know better).
However – personally I do not think that this issue needs it. Maybe when/if more baptist pastors take the side of Strajerii. The Presbyterians and Catholics addressed this issue when there was a considerable number of ‘charismatics’ in their midst! This does not seem to be the case among Romanian Baptists, but maybe you have better data on this!?
For Nelu: I have never ever said that Baptists were the only true Christians and I shall never say it; not in my life, ever. My experience for the past fifteen years has been quite colorful ecclesiastically, and it has never crossed my mind that Baptists were the only true Christians. I don’t know where you got it from, but that, my friend, was certainly not from me.
For Daniel: I am not providing arguments here; just my thoughts. I may be bothered by some of your claims; fine, you got my answers. And I am not trying to convince you that Baptists are experts in pastoral care, but it seems presumptuous to claim – as you did – that there is NO true theologian in Romania. Not to mention that such a conviction runs contrary to that of your father… Don’t get me wrong: you don’t have to agree with your father, not even by far; it was just an observation. I fully endorse your last remark: it is indeed easier to “throw” statements without supporting them with “personal investment”. Our dialogue, however, does not deserve such personal investment, at least not from me (and probably not from you either). I may be wrong, but that’s my conviction for now. This is why I shall simply shut up.
I agree. It doesn’t deserve personal investment. Dialogue is a difficult thing. I’m glad you agree that you did not provide arguments. I was looking for arguments, so I agree that dialogue did not take place in this context. I am (usually) open to dialogue and always looking for good arguments that make sense. I also don’t mind to be proven wrong. ‘Till next time!
When I said that Shifu was right, I was referring especially to this statement: “At last, we’ve been diagnosed… a “kind of superiority complex”. Good point… Coming from two Presbyterian ministers (formerly Baptist) who believe Romanian evangelicals (especially Baptists) lack the experience of true pastoral care to the point that NONE of them really knows what this is (maybe because there is no true theologian among Romanian evangelicals, another “amazing” conclusion from one of you), well – one may wish to reconsider where the “kind of superiority complex” really lies.”
From what I remember – he has many other good points, but I do not have the time and the desire to dig through them now!
Daniel – what argument/dialogue do you desire? It is not clear to me? What is the topic that you would like to dialogue about?
How do you want me to provide evidence that there is pastoral care in Romania??? Do you want me to give you special cases? I could if you insist! I think (as everywhere else) it depends on the church and on the pastor. I am quite confident, that as elsewhere in the world, there are good and bad pastors, pastors who provide good pastoral care and many (perhaps a majority from what I know) who don’t!
I never said that preaching the Word = pastoral care. All I said (and I learned from a world-famous OT scholar who is also a pastor, and i totally agree with him) that in churches where the Word is preached well there is less need for counseling. In other words, where the Word is preached (and not the latest therapies, funny messages etc) there is more maturity in the church, and where is more maturity there is less need for counseling. I realize that I made it ‘sound’ like pastoral care = counseling, and that is not true. However, I think that counseling is a big part of pastoral care!
As far as the induction of a practicing homosexual in the Church of Scotland goes – I am personally shocked by your attitudes. Nelu – if I believe that a practicing homosexual (or adulterer for that matter) should not be a pastor – that makes me a fundamentalist? Interesting. I am ready to bet that 99% of evangelicals (including the Majority World) would back me up on this. And so would the rest of the Christian Church until 1900+! But maybe you too know something we don’t know and are more enlightened!?
[Consider reading Richard Hays on homosexuality in The Moral Vision of the NT – as a professor at Duke I hope you will not call him a fundamentalist! Thanks!]
I never said I will discuss 2 weaknesses of the Church of Scotland (see above). I asked you to list them (I assume you know them better because you are members there) and compare with the top 2 weaknesses in the Baptist Church in RO! I just started with one topic that is really obvious, but one that does not appear a problem to you!
Blessings and have a happy New Year!
Evedyahu (?) I said I will not be entering the debate on homosexuality here, as I have done it elsewhere – but some of your statements shows that you have a very superficial approach to the issue: for example equating sexual orientation (or homosexuality) with adultery shows lack of understanding – these cannot be put in the same category, have nothing in common – it shows either lack of understanding (ignorance?) or desire to ridicule sexual orientation.
I am not sure where you live, but in the UK and even USA recent pools shows that for many people the issue of sexuality is no a big deal (see the recent pew research in the USA on attitudes towards sexuality). I agree that for churches, and in particular evangelical and more traditional it is a big issue (by the way I Hays comes from a Catholic perspective and I would be very surprised if he had a different outlook on sexuality – he has to sing from the same hymn-sheet as his masters/associates in Rome). If you are interested to hear from another perspective and listen to some people and yes quite a lot of evangelicals who have a different view (and talk from personal experience) I can provide you with some links – but I don’t suppose you are ready to listen in order to learn and empathise. It looks more likely you might be ready to cast stones.
I still think you don’t really get the difference between pastoral care and counselling. As a ‘pastor’ I am not trained to do counselling (unless I choose counselling), but I have to be very careful not to mix them. When Daniel talks about pastoral care in this context it is nothing to do with counselling (I will let him explain it if he desires to). And your OT professor either has no idea of pastoral care is or you might have got the wrong end of the stick. Have a look thorough a syllabus of pastoral care course (or a book on pastoral care).
Daniel – regarding your comments:
“I recognize there is a big debate about homosexuality all over the world, and I also recognize that Baptists are tying salvation to sexual purity, which is frankly theologically ridiculous. But that’s just my opinion. Thus, like I said, it is a strength of the CofS, not a weakness.”
The first statement is not really true. The debate about homosexuality is largely isolated to the Western ‘enlightened’ world! Not much debate on this in the Majority World! Don’t you think so?
What do you mean tying salvation to sexual purity? The pursuit of holiness (and this includes sexual purity) follows salvation in most Christian traditions. Doesn’t it?
But maybe I misunderstand you!
The Church of Scotland exists as it currently does because of a rebellion which centred on the right of congregations to choose their own minister and not have someone imposed on them. Therefore any attempt by people outside the congregation in question to stop the appointment of a minister (as happened in the Aberdeen case) is a breach of this principal and something which must be avoided.
There have always been gay ministers in the Church of Scotland. I have known two over the years. One of whom lived in the manse with his male partner. His congregation were fully aware of it. They could have removed him, but didn’t. This right of self determination is very important.
Oh, and Scottish Baptists are quite charismatic. There is a strong charismatic movement in the Baptist Union here. In the mid 90’s you could barely be approved as a minister without being from one of the charismatic congregations.
Just throwing that into the discussion.
What you say about the right of self-determination is true, Gordon, that’s a very good point. Of course the whole discussion about sexuality is huge and has many implications. It can never be properly addressed in a blog. I tried that and it didn’t work. Too much to say, too much to deal with. What I would say about it is that Christians need to get over the genital obsessions if they are to move forward. That takes time, sadly. In many ways, we’re still counting our toes and fingers theologically…
Regarding pastoral care and counselling, my issue was more in the lines of confusing ‘preaching the Gospel’ with ‘counselling’, as if they belong in the same category. Nelu addressed the issue of pastoral care being the same as counselling, which is a more subtle distinction. As far as I see it, pastoral care is really about being present with people, listening to their story, joining them in their spiritual journey. The only thing it has in common with counselling is the listening part. Counselling is much more professional and much more thorough. It involves specialist training and supervision. Knowing your Bible well does not make one a counsellor. The sooner Evangelicals get this the better. I was told recently by a psychologist in the States that couples who go to a Christian counsellor fare much worse than those who don’t. That says a lot!
But like I said, my beef was with the notion that if you preach the gospel properly you don’t need counselling. That is a rubbish idea with absolutely no logical, anthropological or biblical backing. It’s just a made up pietistic sophism. I find that Evangelicals on the whole suffer from this habit of making up stuff that sounds spiritual, while not feeling that they have to back it up with anything. That is so annoying and frustrating, which is why I hardly ever dialogue with them. It’s like speaking different languages.
As far as edeyahu’s (?!?!) comment, “What do you mean tying salvation to sexual purity? The pursuit of holiness (and this includes sexual purity) follows salvation in most Christian traditions. Doesn’t it?”
– that pretty much answers your own question. You DO tie it to salvation. You’re simply changing the order of events, but it’s still about salvation. You can’t escape the fact. What most Evangelicals say is that if you’re truly saved (ridiculous notion, by the way), than you couldn’t possibly still be a homosexual. (This is a very Ton-ist idea 🙂 That is not only not true in practice, but it is also theologically inconsistent with most of what Evangelicals preach on soteriology. That’s as far as I’m willing to go in a blog.
Well, thanks God, that Adam was not a homosexual… And, of course, thanks God for Eve, who was not a lesbian. Thanks God for Jesus, who does not seem to have shared the above-mentioned sexual orientation, although some THEOLOGIANS would argue differently… If homosexuality has nothing to do with sexual purity which is the result of salvation, what’s next? Some kind of weird gnosticism, dressed in academic garments, which professes that sexual orientation has nothing to do with salvation… Thanks God that the Holy Spirit cannot be associated with homosexuality, otherwise we would have been left without Jesus and without salvation. Well, I may be dumber than an ass (and, to some, surely I am), but as I read my Bible the idea of purity is the result of one’s being saved. One may be born with a homosexual orientation (although I believe that it is a chosen sexual preference), but that is no argument in favor of its validity. Sin (a forgotten notion these days…) distorts everything, so even innate homosexual orientation is wrong. And I don’t see why the Holy Spirit is unable to fix that and turn it into heterosexuality. But of course I’m biased beyond remedy…
Yep, there is no need for any addition to that – “for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks” (I am sure you know the gospel reference).
I couldn’t agree more…
I was trying to determine if Josef Tson is still living as of this date (28 May 2018). I can find no information in this regard. Do you know by any chance?
yes he is still alive and well